Teaching the Teachers – What Makes An Incredible Teacher?

Thanks for listening! If you enjoy The Wellspring Way, please subscribe. You can also follow us on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Wellspring Way, Wellsprings fortnightly podcast, where we talk to education professionals about what's going on in the classroom and some of the issues and challenges affecting education. Today's guest is an expert in all things teacher training. She's got over 25 years of school-based teaching experience across Leeds. She's worked at Leeds Trinity University as a lecturer on their undergrad and postgrad programmes, and she now heads up Wellsprings Teacher Training Offer. She's responsible for the trust's initial teacher training strategy, early career teacher induction, and CPD programmes. I'm really pleased to be chatting today to Katie Hartshorn, teacher training and development lead at Wellsprings Josie Thurkle Institute of Education. Katie, welcome to the Wellspring Way. Hi, thank you, Elizabeth. So it's a busy time for you at the minute. Applications are open for initial teacher training. How are you feeling about this year's recruitment?

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Always excited. We get a mix every year, so we get young graduates that have just finished their first undergraduate degree and are thinking about a next step. We also get career changers, people that have got families, maybe have always thought about being a teacher, have never wanted to take that leap. It's been a bit scary for them to maybe make that decision. They might have had a long-standing, career, really successful career doing something completely different to teaching. But so it's so it is exciting, but really, really busy too. What do you think it is that draws people to a career in teaching? I think it's if you love children, I think it's for for most people that I talk to, it's um they go back to their own time being in school, their own education journey, what school was like for them, their experiences that they had. Most people can remember it being a really good time, a fun time being in a primary school. Some don't, equally. But most people that come to us that say they want to be to be a teacher, um, it's probably based on a role model, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Somebody that they've got yeah, they say you know you never forget you never forget your favourite teacher, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Yeah, and for me it was that actually, Elizabeth. For me, it was it was I could take myself back to to year three in my primary school, and this teacher that I had, I wanted to be her. Um she was uh she ran the netball team, she was the you know in charge of extracurricular um activities, and I love sport. You might not know that about me, Elizabeth, but I love my sport. Yeah, you see. And um, and straight away when I when I went into this um class, um uh she was somebody that I used to you know look up to, and from that moment I can remember thinking, I want to be like Mrs. Gould and I want to be like her. And I think many people that that you know have that um itch that they need to scratch about teaching, um it's often because it's either a role model, somebody that they've had and that they want to be like, or you know, they just want to be around children. Um and I was really lucky that um I had those two things, so I had a great role model to aspire to, and I love children, I love being around kids.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Now thinking about the Josie Thurkel Institute, because that's a a brand new concept, a brand new brand, it's not been going very long. Um how's that been kind of introducing that to the education sector when it's I guess an unknown quantity to start with?

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Yeah, and that and that's that's been a challenge for us, I think, Elizabeth, because you know the the teacher training market is a very, very crowded market. I think there's an awful lot of very well-established um providers out there. Most people um traditionally would go to a university as an ITT provider. Um the traditional university route is that you um would do a three or a four-year undergraduate degree and you would um go on school placements and and and then return to university and have some lectures and some um talk training sessions and then go back into a school and have a different placement. Um but but for us as Josie Thurkel, we also, you know, we're competing against very well-established teaching schools that have been around a long time. And and I don't know if um you know Elizabeth, but we were positive regard was a teaching school, a very successful, well-established teaching school for many, many years. So we not only had to change of name, um, but we also have got a changing marketplace at the moment. Um it's it's been very crowded. Um so so yeah, last year was I saw that as an exciting opportunity actually. We've rebranded and we've we've thought very much about what our unique selling feature is, what makes us different to those larger organisations, and that's because we're really small, Elizabeth. We know our we know our trainees by name, we know all our schools where they're going to be going into, we can work with the the staff that are in the schools and the leaders to make sure that the um the training schools are where they're going in a fit for them, and and it's it's a really, really successful match, and I think that's what makes us um a really good option for people.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Yeah, yeah. I've um I've heard you say that before that it's um it's a really kind of close, almost family kind of feel. Everyone, everyone knows everybody, and there's massive support across the trust for for trainees. They get to see lots of different things rather than being in one particular school and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

And yeah, and and I think because we are um the nature of of our trust schools, um and the the um the communities that they serve are very, very diverse. Um, you know, we have primary, um, we have secondary schools, we have alternate provision schools, we have SEND settings, um, we have uh of children that come from many, many different backgrounds. So that that provides a real rich opportunity for our trainees or anybody that wants to come into teacher training with us across their training year to have opportunities to go into all those different settings.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Yeah, I mean I had a chat on here actually with um Dave Whitaker a few weeks back, and one of the things he said that would be good would be if all teachers in teacher training could experience a special setting or an alternative provision setting, it had really opened their eyes to um to different practice and behaviour management strategies and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah, and I think that um from my own experience, Elizabeth, I mean I was a primary school teacher for 17 years in an area of Leeds that probably wouldn't be considered um a deprived area. Um, and um I absolutely loved loved my 17 years there. I had a great time. And um when I came to work at Wellspring, even after those 17 years, um it opened my eyes to the challenges that many of our young teachers have that I probably hadn't experienced in those 17 years in that setting, just because of you know, a different area, different postcode, yeah, um a different um community that that school served. So um what a fantastic learning curve it was for me. You know, it wasn't easy some days, um, but with those 17 years of experience, I had to start again. I felt like a novice all over again, Elizabeth. You know, sometimes call that, isn't it? It did, it would, it was, it was challenging for me, but equally it was super rewarding as well. Right. Um, and I learned an awful lot about different strategies, um, different approaches to to um you know managing pupils with really, really complex and and and challenging needs that maybe I hadn't come across being in that that school for 17 years. So I think if you're if you're on if you're in on a training programme and you are part of a trust like ours that offers those different opportunities while you have got that safety net of training as well, Elizabeth, because remember when the when they're training, they're not in the classroom on their own, they're not left with a class of 30 children, they're they're working alongside and being mentored and guided by you know experienced class teachers.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Okay, because you see it quite a lot that people think that they want to teach in one particular area or or setting, and then they've never experienced something else, they experience it. It's like actually that's that's where I belong.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

We we had a couple of trainees, actually, one I can think of only for last year that that came to us on the um what we call the primary general programme. So that means that their training offer and the schools that they work in is a primary focus. So their placements obviously are in primary schools, mainstream, and they for for a range of different reasons um were then given an opportunity to go to one of our our Springwell schools for for a couple of weeks, and that trainee wanted to stay there. Um so we were able, because again, we're a small provider, Elizabeth, we've got that flexibility within our programme to be able to, you know, make those decisions ourselves, we've got that that autonomy. Um, rather than some of the larger organisations, they maybe don't have that flexibility to be able to do that for trainees. So we were able to do that for her, and and what was really fantastic is that she's she's now employed in that school, you know, so she's gone into an S C N D setting for a couple of weeks and now is absolutely loving it and and and you know has has been successful at securing employment there. And so we've kept her in the trust, we've trained her, and and now she's now she's employed as an early career teacher with us, which is just a fantastic success story.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Yeah, it's a win-win for everybody, that one, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So what makes a brilliant teacher? Do you see them straight away?

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Can you spot them? Um I think you probably can actually. I think you can often see it in them, they can't see it in themselves. Um, I think I've come across people that I think they will be a fantastic teacher. They've got, you know, what is that that X factor? You've asked me a difficult one there. There's things that you can coach, Elizabeth, and there's things that you can learn on a teacher training programme, and there's there's things that you can't. Right. And it is a bit like that X factor. I'm probably copying out here, aren't I? But it's a bit like that X factor, you see it in them, and and they've got um that ability to just engage with children that they are comfortable around children, they are intuitive, they are instinctive, they seem to know what to do around children, they smile and they're happy around children. I know that that's for me, that's what what I feel like inside when I'm around children. As soon as I step into a school, I feel really, really comfortable being there. Um but there are others that are really, really um often when we interview them, and that's been a challenge with COVID because we've interviewed a lot virtually, Elizabeth, and you and you don't see that coming through the screen. It's been difficult. But once we get them into schools and you start to ask them to work with a group of children, very, very quickly you get to see whether they've they've got or they will have it, yeah, or they won't. So a lot of the programme is about um obviously learning about the pedagogy, teaching and learning understanding and developing your subject knowledge and a range of different strategies, but but that can be learnt and developed over time whilst you're working along and working alongside an experienced class teacher throughout the training year. But the innate stuff that's kind of inside them, that that personality, you can't teach or coach that. It's either there or it isn't you're born with that, I think.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Yeah, I mean my mum's a retired teacher, and she always said it's it's a vocation. Yeah, you've got to feel it. To to do it properly, you've got to feel it. It's not just a job.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

I agree, I agree. Because when it when it's really, really hard, Elizabeth, you know, it's those things we always say, remember why you why you're doing this. You're doing it for the children.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

You're doing it because you know that you you um you want to be that role model for them, you want to be the person that's their champion and that's the that you know that's fighting for them. When things get tough for them, you're there for them. You are that parent, you're that social worker, you're the nurse, you're the confidant, you're the mum. You've got so many hats that you have to wear. Um, and and that can be really, really demanding and challenging. We can't get away from that. But when it becomes tough, remember why you came into it in the first place and it'll get you through. Yeah, go in.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Because I'm I I've you know, I've got two kids and I struggle with with two sometimes. I think how on earth you you manage a class full, it's beyond me.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

I I always said that I think I became the best teacher, Elizabeth, actually, when I became a parent, because I really kind of you know started to really understand children a lot more then, and that you know, that was quite a few years into my career. Um, and I'm not saying that you have to have children to be a great teacher, you absolutely don't. But for me, that was a you know, that was something that kind of hit me, hit me quite hard. And um, I started to see things from a child's perspective a lot more. I understood um children and and what made them tick and and what didn't. Yeah, so I felt that I became the best teacher um that over time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Um you've spoken a little bit about your career. Yeah. Um you were a teacher for 17 years, you said? Yeah. So that with. So how how did you move across and how did you find that? Because that's quite a change, isn't it, from classroom to it is to this?

SPEAKER_00 12:49

It is, yeah. I mean, I I started off actually. We I was connected with um uh Leeds Trinity University and I was a mentor, so we would have trainees that would come in on the university training routes, and they would come in for six or seven weeks on a placement, and um and and I was in a small junior school uh with five, five, six classes, and that's how old I am, you see, because now we don't have we don't have those. Um but but yeah, I I would often take the trainees um and they would come in my class, and I absolutely loved that idea of seeing them grow over those six or seven weeks that they were with me, and and I would enjoy um them working alongside me, and and I would learn from them, Elizabeth. You know, it's not a one-way street, it's not, you know, I didn't profess to know everything. They would come in with new and exciting ideas, and you know, and I would encourage that. So I learnt from them, coming in with you know their their um new practices and research because that's changing all the time.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

You need that in any industry, don't you? You need the experience combined with the kind of the enthusiasm and excitement that you get at the beginning of a career. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yes, so I used to love that. So, and and I started to think, um, you know, actually I'm quite good at this mentoring, you know. I always got really positive feedback, um, blow my own trumpet now, but I always got really good feedback from the from the universities um in terms of them saying that the you know the student or the trainee had had had a great experience and they felt that you you know you were a really strong mentor and you you you had a real impact on them. And I thought, I'm doing this to just one trainee, Elizabeth. Yeah, no, maybe just one every year. Um I'm actually quite good at this. So is there any opportunity for me to have that greater impact on more people? Um, and and a colleague and friend of mine who I actually used to play tennis with, she was my doubles partner, and um and she uh is a music specialist at the university, and she said, Katie, Katie, that there's a job, you know, you'd be fabulous. And I was like, No way, I can't, I'm not academic, I can't, I can't, I can't lecture because they were called lecturers then. It's funny though, isn't it? Because you could stand up in a classroom and effectively deliver a lecture all the time. Well, you do, because teaching and learning is teaching and learning, and I never saw myself as a lecturer, even when I I was successful at getting the job, Elizabeth. Um, you know, I I never said I am a lecturer. I am a teacher first and foremost, and I I I absolutely am that. Um, and um, and certainly my lectures um were were not in in auditoriums, they were they were in classrooms because it was a primary primary education programme, and um yeah, I I loved it. I loved going to the university, huge challenge for me, massive, massive learning um curve for me, learning a different um sector of uh of education. I had an awful lot to learn. Um, you know, I'd got two young children, both at that point still at primary school. So so that was after being somewhere for 17 years, that was a scary step for me to take. But but you know, um I did in those five years that I was there, it it's brought me to where I am now and given me um given that opportunity to develop so many partnerships, connections, networks. I did a master's study, further study while I was there. Um, so um yeah, research um you know opportunities for me now to be able to bring that back to an organisation like Wellspring, for me I feel really privileged.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yeah. Really privileged. I'm sure Wellspring's really feels privileged to have that all that experience as well. So um you've obviously you've taught children, you've taught adults. What's harder?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Oh gosh, adults. Oh I oh I can remember, particularly at the university, um, you know, coming from a year six class where you know you ask a question and you know, half the class would be responding, hands would be up, or there would be instant chatter and instant talk. You're actually telling them to be quiet, then going into a university setting with a room full of 18 or 19 year olds that many of them have probably um hung over from the night before. They've dragged themselves out of the halls of residence.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Doing that. No, surely not.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

And and that was that was a huge change for me. Uh asking a question and there'd be complete silence, you know, vacant faces, people people avoiding eye contact, um, grunting at you, you know, as they walked in. I'd never experienced anything like that, to be honest. So that was a huge, huge um difference for me because I'd had the buzz of and your kids were small, so you'd not had the teenage thing at home to kind of experience. No, that that's that's come now. I understand that. So actually being at university, um, being with those that age group has prepared me now for for yeah, two much much older um teenagers and now young young adults. So yeah, I feel that that probably I did it the right way, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah, I think so. I think that's um probably the a wise a wise way around. Yeah, I think I'd I'd take small children over teenagers, have an experience I've got both at home at the same time. It's not easy. It's definitely not. Um right then, moving on to the fun bit. Okay, quick fire round. Let's get a little bit of a steer on what your own what your own school days were like. Okay. Um we well, we've heard a little bit about it already, about your um fabulous teacher that inspired you. But these are these are just some simple questions. Oh, I know what the answer's gonna be to this one already.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Okay, go.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Art or PE.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

PE. Definitely easy.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Tennis. Tell me, tell me something about tennis.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Absolutely. Oh, tennis. Um, used to play a lot of tennis. I mean, I used to play everything, Elizabeth. My dad would say, you know, um she she will she will do anything. My dad got sick of taking me in the car to this club, that club. Um, yeah, tennis and netball were my two two big things. Unfortunately, it's not helped the knees over the years, so I've suffered for that um since then. But yeah, my two huge passions uh uh certainly tennis to to this day and my rugby. I love my rugby to watch it, not play it. Um but but yeah, and I love the fact that that you know sport is is a great um a great institution that that allows children to um to develop relationships and and build so much confidence, resilience, um, you know, to be committed to something and and just it's it w it's been a great part of my life and um and is now part of that for my children as well.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Yeah, and I guess there's that thing of you know, not all children are academic.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

No.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Um and sport is sometimes that's no that's that's the place where they get to shine, and it's really important.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Yeah. I I I I was lucky enough to be able to, you know, just take my hand to anything, pick a racket up and be able to hit, you know, kick a ball easy. I f I found all that really, really easy. And I just loved um, you know, I just loved being outside as well. It's the absolute opposite of me.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

I'm hopeless, hopeless, hopeless at sport, always have been. Um after school clubs or head straight home?

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Oh, after school clubs, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Yeah. Um languages or sciences?

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Oh, not very good, probably either, I think, Elizabeth. There, I mean, where it definitely not languages, so I'd have to go for sciences, probably.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Did you have a favourite one? Is it biology, chemistry?

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Probably biology.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah. Um physics was an absolute no-no. Um, I think there was probably too much maths involved with with the physicses, but um, yeah, probably biology because I think it it it there was an awful lot of anatomy, physiology. Oh, pass over to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's always always a sport thread somewhere.

unknown 19:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

And I'll know the answer to this one as well. Um, summer fair or sports day.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Oh, yeah, sports day. Uh people used to dread that, but no, I used to love it, look forward to it every year.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Um, school dinners are packed lunches.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Packed lunches, actually. Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm a bit of a creature of habit when it comes to food. There's certain things that I like, things that I don't, and and and I can remember the school dinners sometimes were not were not the best, um, Elizabeth. So yeah, I I quite like the same sandwich every day and and the little penguin biscuit that my mum would put in there.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

A proper chocolate biscuit lunch.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

That was a treat, a penguin biscuit back then, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Um singing in assembly, yes or no?

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Oh yes, yeah. Full on station. As you probably can tell, I'm not I'm not not too shy and quiet. Um, so yeah, anything. Um anything where I could be centre stage and and performing.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Yeah, nice, nice. Um, yeah, I um hopeless at singing as well. Love doing it, just tone deaf.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

So I'm not saying I'm any good at it, Elizabeth. I'm just saying that I enjoyed it. I think lots of people will probably tell you that um, you know, I'm useless. My family um certainly would would would be laughing now if they're listening to this and and and I'm saying that I'm a good singer because I'm certainly not.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

My my kids plead to me to stop singing in the car. They're like, Mum, make it stop, please stop it. So um yeah, I know I know where my skills lie, it's not in singing. Um last question, it's the one that we ask everybody. Now, if I could give you a magic wand and you could change absolutely anything about the education system, there's no money to worry about or practicalities, what do you think you'd do?

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Really, really good question. I all children just need to have the same opportunities regardless of where they live, where they come from, what you know, and and um some kids really have it tough, don't they? And I think I I've been really, really fortunate to have um uh the opportunities that I have through through a really, really stable family, really good primary schools, um, and and and then further education and and and life chances, all of those things I've had a loving, supportive family behind me all the way. Um so even when I've taken a risk and things haven't gone well, I've had people there to come. Safety net to catch up. Yeah, yeah, and and and I'd want that for every single child. I wish I could, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Well, you've got a magic wand, so you could make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

I'd love to have that for for every child. Brilliant answer. Yeah, I would.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for joining us today. Um, it's been brilliant to kind of hear about your story and um and your views on teacher training and who's the most tricky to teach. I wasn't surprised actually, I thought it might be adults. Um, best of luck with with the um recruitment of the new teachers. Hope you get some brilliant applicants. Yes, me too.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

I'm sure you will. Excited. And that's it for this episode. Um, join me next time where we'll be talking to Carrie Green and getting her take on being a head teacher, being right there at the coalface. Um, we'll see you then. Bye.