Education Leadership – Developing The Visionaries To Drive Change

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome back to the Wellspring Way, the podcast where we discuss best practice in schools, how to overcome challengers, and what life is really like in the classroom. My guest today is an expert in all things leadership. He's worked with a real cross-section of people from prisoners to help them fit back into society and break the cycle of crime to high achieving fast jet pilots in the UK military. More recently, he's been focused on coaching leaders and potential leaders across our schools here at Wellspring. I'm pleased to be able to welcome Rob Smith from RJS Coaching to the show. Rob, it's lovely to have you here today.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Hi Elizabeth, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

How are you? This back of the year.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Yeah, very good, thank you. Yeah, I feel nice and relaxed and a good Christmas and very quiet, but yeah, good.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

So tell me a little bit about your background and how you got into leadership coaching.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Right, so it's quite a circuitous route, really. Um, my most of my adult working life, I guess, was uh in the Royal Air Force. So I was a physical training instructor. Um, I then sort of specialise as an adventurous training instructor and found myself teaching skiing, mountaineering, canoeing, climbing all over the world. I was really lucky. Um, and I think I got to a point maybe when I was about 28, 30 years old, and I thought, you know, it's it's maybe time to grow up a little bit. And I was doing quite a bit of reading around um leadership coaching, human development, and that kind of thing. And I started looking at what I was doing and thinking, well, do you know I can get a lot more out of this? You know, rather than taking people just for a week skiing and teaching them to ski, I started thinking a little bit more about the growth that they were going through in that process and how we could kind of uh translate that back into their workplace. Um, so the more we did that, the more I think with the more success we started to have with it, and the more of a thing it became in my area of the Air Force. Um, you know, leadership in its leadership training in its traditional sense was kind of the tabletop exercises, all of that sort of thing. But um they I think they started to see more value uh coming from the outdoor environment environment when people were really stretched, you know, when they were at points where they were feeling genuinely afraid, and it was You see a lot of this kind of stuff on TV now, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

About kind of pushing people to their limits in in physical ways outside and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

You really do. Uh it was quite interesting watching the Wim Hof thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

I don't know if you saw that with the cold absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Uh and I'm not saying that we we were doing the same kind of thing, but we were doing similar things where we were exposing people to these austere environments in snow holes and uh really um kind of really cold and windy um situations that they'd never really been in before.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Right. Proper proper testy metal kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Really, yeah. Yeah, it was it was quite interesting because you know, we've been up there lots and lots of times up in the Cairn Gorman in the Alps, and but their eyes were out on stalks, you know, they were they were really fearing for their own lives, even though they weren't in any danger. But the learning curve that they experienced through that process was you it's so difficult to replicate that anywhere. And and this is now a really established thing, not just within the military, but you know, a lot of um a lot of businesses invest in this kind of training now to take their sort of more senior leaders into environments that are austere and difficult for them because it translates back to their their workplace. So that's sort of where we where that came from. Um I left the Air Force originally in 2006, and I think it was because I I wanted to try and experience something a little bit different. And the first job I almost fell into really was running an offending behaviour program within a prison down in Rookland, HMP Stockholm, and I took over a wing of 66 adult male prisoners. And this prisoner, this this this wing, particular E-wing, was nicknamed the Bronx because it was rough as really rough.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Yeah, and when I was first introduced to the the prisoners, I went there as a bit of a taster, really, before the interview, and I sort of put my suit on, my tie and brand new suit, thinking you make a good impression, all of that kind of thing. And um I went into the wing up uh up on the uh up on the landings and met a few of the the senior sort of prisoners and the staff, and I came back out. And when I took my jacket off at the car in the car park, the people spat on the back of my jacket and brand new suit, you know. And I'm thinking, am I really doing the right thing here? Um so I drove home about 35 minutes home, and and I th and I really, really sort of had to search for some answers, you know. Is this the right thing for me? I thought, well, you know, they're coming from a place where they feel massively disaffected, totally disconnected. And you think, well, if this works, this could be a great thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

If it doesn't work, it could be an incredibly stressful thing. But it did work, and it worked incredibly well. And we had we had probably the most success, statistically one of the most successful offending behavior programs in the whole prison system.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Um and you were brand new to this.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Yeah, I was totally new to it, completely new. I mean, I'd done lots of things in the Air Force, and lots of, you know, I'd uh neurolinguistic programming and all this kind of stuff, and I I had no idea where it fit. Yeah, you know, I was doing courses, I think, for courses' sake at the time. Uh I think gets lots of qualifications and uh but they are good at that, the military, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

They do pretty well.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

They do, and um but actually it happened, and I and I say almost by accident, and it was by accident, I spent a lot of time uh one-to-one discussions with prisoners that were on the program, and gradually I started to see where everything that I'd learnt before fit, where it really fit, and where it could have some real genuine uh effect. Um, and you know, we we we got to a position where Jack Straw was the home secretary at the time, and he visited the prison and he came up onto our wing, and now he'd been to several other wings prior to visiting us, and uh, you know, and they'd just hurled abuse at him and all that kind of thing, just like they do, because he's the home secretary. He came onto our wing and he was greeted by a prisoner who held his hand out and says, Good afternoon, Mr. Straw. Welcome to the car and I was when can I get you a cup of coffee or a biscuit?

SPEAKER_00 7:15

And his face, like, what on earth?

SPEAKER_01 7:18

You nearly fell over, he near fell over. Yeah, but you know, it was it was very, very successful. Uh but unfortunately, I think, like a lot of things in in um in the prison service in particular, the pol politicians follow trends, and the trend was uh violence and crime as a result of alcohol. Uh so the money got diverted into alcohol programs, and ours sort of suffered quite a lot and it was watered down quite a lot. So I left, I moved on from there. Um, I did several other things, management and leadership development training with uh with a with a management consultancy. That was incredibly boring. I spent a lot of time down in London. Can you imagine in these austere kind of hotel meeting rooms with groups of people who really didn't want to be there with a a syllabus of training which was incredibly dull? Um and I thought, you know, I need something more than this in my life. So I ended up back with the RAF. Um, and this time it was a totally different role. It was an air crew-specific coaching program, and then I found myself coaching um fast jet pilots from RAF Valley, training fast jet pilots, helicopter pilots at RF Shawbury. And I thought this is it.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Sounds all very glamorous and top gun-like, was it?

SPEAKER_01 8:49

It was well, no. It's really interesting because these guys are really high achievers, you know. They they've done so well in life, you know, they've always been told how good they are, and uh they got all their you know, top GCSEs and A levels and their good degrees and masters and this kind of thing. And they everything they've done has been success, success, success. And then they get to a point where they fail. And it's for them, it's like falling off the edge of a cliff.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Because they've never experienced it. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah, they they've never they've they've never developed any resilience to failure because all they've ever known is success, you know, until that point where they fail. And it can be catastrophic for some.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

And this is where the coaching came in. It was almost it was almost brought in as a bit of a uh safety net, if you like. Right. Um, but it became more than that. It became more than we we we we found that through coaching intervention we could actually not just get them back um back in the cockpit, if you like, but actually change the whole mindset towards their own development, toward towards their commitment to that development, and so on and so on. So the the coaching thing really kind of gathered pace. Um then I went on to do um a kind of a master's level coaching program, which is where I met your chief exec Mark, who's on the same program. Um and you know, we we we spent some time coaching each other through the program and that kind of thing, and uh yeah, and he contacted me and asked me if I'd be interested in going to do some coaching at Wellspring, and and and here we are, and that's then developed uh into the leadership programs that we're running now, uh, which you know I think are going down really well. And they're um they're well targeted, they're they're I think introducing leadership maybe through a different lens, yeah, um, which is kind of quite important. It's a very human-based leadership, and yeah, I mean, long may it continue. It's uh I'm you know, we we're hoping that you know these courses run and run uh and evolve.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

What makes a brilliant leader?

SPEAKER_01 11:18

It's really interesting. I I think I think leadership is often confused, and I the reason I say that is because you know, people talk about well, I'm really good at I'm really good at looking after the finances of the school, I'm really good at looking after the welfare of people and so on and so on. So and I kind of see those as management tasks, really. Yeah, um, I think leadership is something different. I think leadership is a very human quality, and it's a quality that um enables someone to I think step back a little bit, see the bigger picture, and also but also think how how can I how can I put this person or this group of people on a pedestal? How can I make them as great as they can possibly be? And it's a very selfless service approach.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

It's enabling, isn't it, rather than kind of dictating what people should do?

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Yeah, it is. Uh traditionally, leadership has been, you know, you you you move up that pyramid, you know, to the top of the pyramid, and uh then you have the vision and the drive and and everything, and you you you encourage people to follow you on that journey.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

From the front.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Whereas I would kind of invert that triangle really and see the leader as, like you say, an enabler, but someone who has maybe their hand on the tiller.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Uh, but enables the the the rest, the people that they influence, to you know, to to come up with the ideas, the fresh ideas, and and put those ideas into effect and drive and move that thing forward. I quite often, I quite often hear phrases such as, you know, I need to turn this thing around. Well, actually, I I don't kind of see it that way. I think they, the people that we influence, need to turn this thing around. You just need to provide the direction.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

And and because the force of many is much greater than the force of one trying to drag everybody along with them. So I think somebody who's absolutely selfless, that puts others before themselves, that sees uh sees things um from a perspective of, you know, this is greater than me. This is not, it's not about me. Yeah, it's actually about everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

So thinking about that then and thinking about you know, teachers in general, who in the main are very much like that by by default, really, that they are about others and wanting to um well, they're leaders in their classroom, they're leading a whole group of young people. So I'm guessing they're they're perfect for for leadership training.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

I think I think they are. I I think they are absolutely, and especially at that um at those more junior levels. Because um, how do I put this without offending anyone? They haven't really been uh tainted because they're still there they they they're still fresh and they're still thinking they're still of that mindset that I'm here to create, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Yeah, yeah, that enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Yes, to work for other people, to develop other people. Now I I I you know I've I've I've shared this with uh several sort of senior leaders within Wellspring, and that I I've seen uh of not just not just within Wellspring, but within education, that it's actually quite similar in a way to the military, it's quite hierarchical by nature. Um it's very much like the head teacher, and then down the pyramid to you know the ASLT and so on and so on and so on. Um, and when I talk about this to people, they recognize it, they absolutely recognize it. Um but I think I think what sets uh Wellspring apart is a real desire for that not to be the case. I think it's really, really empowering, and there are very few organizations that would that would invest in changing that, yeah, changing that mindset and developing a much healthier, um a much broader uh approach to to leadership. And yeah, and I and I find that quite inspiring, really.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

I think we're very, very fortunate that we're led by somebody who's like you say, visionary and an enabler, um, and that that spills down to everyone.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

It's really interesting. I was listening on the car to uh uh a podcast, and it was around it was around um this idea that you know, chief finance officer, what you know, what would the qualities be of a chief finance officer? What would you think?

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Um attention to detail, um, commercial acumen, um good with numbers and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Yeah, chief engineering officer?

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Um problem solving, um yeah, logical.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Yeah, so so those titles really fit the person, don't they? And the or the person is chosen because of the skills that fit into those particular roles. Yeah. You know, someone who is no good with money isn't going to get the job as chief finance officer.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Well you'd hope not.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

But what's a chief executive officer then?

SPEAKER_00 16:56

It's a very vague term, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 16:58

It is a very vague term, isn't it? Really vague term.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

But um the so the the the podcast I was listening to was talking about, well, actually, it really ought, maybe it ought to be called the CVO, the chief visionary officer. And I thought that was really interesting, isn't it? That that they're the person that has their view on the horizon and beyond. And um the the rest are the functionaries that make that happen. Yeah. And I thought that was really interesting, actually. Uh, and and I think that probably is certainly the chief exec here. I would say that it fits into that kind of role.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Um, and it and it's so so yeah, it's it's a really interesting one. I think most most organisations, um, yeah, I'm not sure they they choose chief executive officers as the number one position from other areas, such as a good chief financial officer who's been there for a while who becomes replaces the, you know, not necessarily equipped with the skills, that visionary skill to take people or take the organization further. But yeah, I just thought that was quite interesting.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

I I read something recently about um that basically a good chief exec or chief visionary officer, if you would call them that, um, could um be moved from any organization to any organisation really um because it it's about vision and mindset, and then they just build an amazing team around them to deliver it. So you don't need that expertise in a particular sector to be an amazing, no amazing chief experience.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

No, no, it's really interesting, interesting position.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

What do you think the um some of the biggest challenges are for um education professionals in leadership?

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Um that's a really interesting question. Uh you know, at the end of I I'm gonna I'm gonna skip to the question you often ask at the end, um, what would you change? Because it's because I think it kind of um fits in here really. Um I think I look at a lot of websites, school websites, because I I'm quite interested in what they're saying. And quite interested in seeing whether what they're saying aligns with what the head teacher is saying. And many almost all websites I read, it's about my my drive or my purpose is to put the pupil first. Yeah, it's about putting the pupil first, it's all about the children. And without sounding controversial, I kind of disagree with that. Because I think the purpose and the responsibility of her teacher is to the teachers, to the staff, the people that they influence. I think the purpose and responsibility of the teachers is to the pupils.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

So if teachers go into work in the morning and they feel um they feel empowered, they feel uh safe, they feel supported, well trained, um, and and that the head's got their back, then I think the educational um journey for the children will by be by default better.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

And the head teacher, regardless, can't spread themselves so thin that they can be all things to all people. But if their energy is directed towards the staff and making the staff's lot that much better, feeling uh making them feel that much safer, that much more supported within their role, then I think the end product will occur.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

It's like a natural biological product rather than making that your focus. Exactly, yeah. So you still end up at the same place, hopefully, but more effectively.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yeah, I think so, I think so. That's uh don't get me wrong, I'm I'm not holding myself up as being, you know, uh any anything anything special here, but it just seems to me as though they're the people that have daily contact with the children all day long, and surely they're the most uh the best positioned to ensure that that journey through school is as good as it can be. But are they only going to do that if they feel safe and supported and secure and within their day to day?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

I suspect it's probably the case.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

So jump into that final question that we're doing a little bit back to front this time. So in terms of if you could change anything in the education. system what what tangible thing do you think it would be to kind of to kind of get to that point?

SPEAKER_01 22:06

I I I think I think if we if we could have something similar to if we if we could have a a a Wellspring kind of approach across the board. I and I and I'm not I'm not trying to hold wellspring up as being anything particularly amazing or but we are I know we are but but really that that approach that supports people and openly supports people and is happening you know when people are feeling um the stresses and strains of you know of a difficult term when they're going through difficult periods such I know we've just had COVID but these difficult periods happen all the time it seems you know to have that to have that safety net and for people to feel that that safety net is there for them I think would really enhance what is delivered we could talk about finance and we could talk about a new government and all of this kind of thing and more support from the education ministers of course that's always going to be the case but I think when you boil it right down people have to feel safe and secure in what they're doing. If they don't feel safe and secure then they're either going to have one eye on the door or it's going to diminish their performance to such an extent that somebody else has got an eye on the door for them. Yeah and we're seeing that across the board aren't we're seeing you know the education sector's hemorrhaging talent um and yeah we do and it's it's it's it's awful to see isn't it it is yeah right moving on to something a bit more lighthearted okay so as we do with all our guests quickfire round let's know a little bit about your school days um I think I might know this one um indoor or outdoor people absolutely outdoor what was your favourite um cricket cross country rugby football basically anything outside outdoors um languages or sciences um sciences was it did you have a favourite or was no just rubbish at languages fair enough exams or coursework um coursework I was I was dreadful at exams uh I just never worked hard enough uh in the build up to them and I you know lots of people I knew were spent all this time cramming you know before an exam I couldn't even do that you know I was just I I just wanted to go and play rugby or go walking or go rock climbing or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Um Christmas or summer holidays summer all the time because you can get out outdoors and do do all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

I speak to my wife quite often about you know the the first time I had a bike you know and you go out riding for the whole day you know and you come back when it's dark which in the summer is late you know having had nothing to eat nothing to drink or anything like that. Absolutely filthy and all the rest of it absolutely disgusting yeah but it was great fun.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Yeah. Um story time or paint him stories I love stories.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Yeah I love big reader I I I love to listen to stories actually I love to listen to stories not necessarily that are you know in the form of audiobook but people's stories real stories yeah I yeah I love that it's yeah for people to actually open up and say you know what's not what's necessarily what's on their mind but share some of the history with you and that it's a real privilege.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

That's that thing is you can you can live a thousand lives through books can't you?

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Oh you can yeah um school disco yes or no every yes absolutely yeah we had lots of big uh drapes and curtains and uh yeah proper fancy stuff though dark dark corn dark corners and yes brilliant um and then um you've kind of mentioned it earlier but I'm gonna ask you again just um in case there's anything else that's come to mind um if I could give you a magic wand and you could change absolutely anything in the education system um to make things better in this country what would it be? So so one thing I've uh recognised um as I've got I guess deeper and deeper into education is that people generally don't learn about leadership until they get into a leadership position which is quite was quite surprising I must admit when I first when I first realized this now my my thoughts my feelings are that right from the very beginning as a newly qualified teacher you should be learning about leadership leadership that suits your level and possibly the next level beyond and then as they move as as they move forward in their careers they should this should be reinforced and developed so that when they get into a position of leadership where they're responsible for other people they're actually ready for it. They've had that progress and they're ready they're ready and equipped to go now the very first head teacher I spoke to um in a in a coaching capacity was was just the opposite just the opposite and and this person was she she had no leadership um development on her on on her journey yeah until she f until she found herself responsible for a whole school of people and she was dying really I don't I mean really really struggling under incredible stress and all the rest of it. Yeah incredible stress really and so she she'd spent she spent the first year or 18 months or so of her headship pretty much alienating the whole of her staff by the decisions that she made which were based on the experiences of other leaders she'd been under.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Oh and it so you just get patterns replicating themselves.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Absolutely absolutely that and the history just repeats and repeats and repeats and then you know the next 18 months or so trying to mend those relationships that she broken within her school so she can actually start moving forward and which is frightening and and and and massively unfair really I think if we're going to promote if if we're going to promote people into positions of responsibility for other people then we should have done we should as an organization as a as a sector we should have prepared them as best we possibly can along their journey so that when they get there they're ready to take on the reins and nobody let's face it nobody is ever fully equipped for that kind of role but I think they can be a lot better equipped than they are currently yeah than suddenly thrown in the deep end and it's sink or swim kind of time.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Absolutely yeah wonderful thanks so much for joining me today it's been brilliant I've really enjoyed it um next time I'll be joined by Well Springs' new chair of governors Cheryl Hobson who'll be talking about her hopes for the future until then take care and we hope you can join us next time